Church of England ‘seems incapable’ of transparency and accountability, says Bishop of Newcastle

Cathy Newman: Bishop Helen-Ann, you started the ball rolling, really, you were pretty pivotal in Justin Welby’s decision to resign. And plenty of his allies say actually he could have stuck it out. What do you say to them?
Helen-Ann Hartley: I think the archbishop was right to resign. I think that the Makin Report is of such a serious nature, in terms of the safeguarding failings, that anybody named in that report, including the archbishop, who has been shown to have failed when it comes to safeguarding, ought to resign – at the very least, to start off with. Step back from whatever public ministry they occupy – pending an independent investigation.
Cathy Newman: Right, so I mean anyone criticised should resign? That includes several – multiple – bishops, including the Bishop of Lincoln, formerly the Bishop of Ely, then?
Helen-Ann Hartley: I think anybody named in the report, who has been shown to have failed when it comes to safeguarding, does need, at the very least, in the first instance, to step back from public ministry. And there does really need to be a commitment to transparency, accountability and independence. I mean, Keith Makin’s interview there is really a damning indictment of the church’s response. And with a heavy heart, the church says that it’s putting victims and survivors at the heart of its response. But actually it’s causing further trauma by its ongoing internalisation of process and also obfuscation of accountability and independence. And that is what we must move to with some urgency.
Cathy Newman: I mean, what does it say that Justin Welby has quit, but multiple others named in the report, including bishops, haven’t? Including, and just to come back to the former Bishop of Ely, now Bishop of Lincoln. He had exactly the same information as Justin Welby. Yet he’s had a reflection interview instead of quitting. If you’d been criticised in that way, you would have gone by now, would you?
Helen-Ann Hartley: Yes, I would. And any clergy person in my diocese, of which I have jurisdiction, the Diocese of Newcastle, would in the first instance be asked to step back and we would conduct an investigation. Or rather I wouldn’t, but I would ensure that there would be an independent, thorough and appropriate investigation conducted.
Cathy Newman: So how is it, then, that these men apparently seem incapable of taking responsibility?
Helen-Ann Hartley: I think, sadly, the church is beset with a culture that internalises entitlement and a sense of its own narrative. Many of the responses that I’ve had in the last week have come from partners in civic life, in health care, in higher education – and many other institutions and sectors – where they’re telling me that my stance is absolutely correct and that there does need to be transparency and accountability. And the church sadly seems incapable of doing this. Hence why we need to move to independence in our safeguarding.
Cathy Newman: Yeah, many people have made that call. I mean, you’re a brave woman. You called for Justin Welby to resign and he then did. There are growing calls for the Archbishop of York to resign as well, over separate safeguarding concerns. Should he consider his position too, in your view?
Helen-Ann Hartley: I can’t speak to the detail of that concern. I would need to see it myself. I have read the Makin Review and, in a sense, that’s what we’re speaking about tonight. But I think any senior leader or any clergy person holding a licence in the church, or lay minister who has been shown to have failed when it comes to safeguarding, needs to consider their position, be held to account by an independent body and step back if necessary. There has to be a change of culture in the church.
Cathy Newman: Just to expand on the point about the Archbishop of York. You sent him – well, you accused him of sending a pretty strongly worded letter about the suspension of his predecessor. And just to quote what you said, you said that his letter signified ‘a wider and systemic dysfunction of how the hierarchy of the Church of England has dealt with matters of safeguarding’. You accused him and the outgoing Archbishop of Canterbury of using coercive language. I mean, it was really strong stuff. Have you had an apology from either of them?
Helen-Ann Hartley: I’ve not heard directly from either archbishop. I think when I received the letter it felt coercive to me, particularly addressing me by my first name and then signing the letter with their full titles. The language and the inference in the letter spoke to me strongly of a tone that was coercive and an inappropriate exercise of power. And I’ve not had an apology from either archbishop directly for that.
Cathy Newman: They deny any wrongdoing. But I mean, if there’s a clear-out of the scale that you’re talking about, it’s a constitutional crisis for the church, isn’t it?
Helen-Ann Hartley: You could say that. And I think in some ways this does need to be a watershed moment. You know, the church cannot circle the wagons and turn in on itself. It truly has an opportunity, I think, now to look outwards, to be held to account and to be a church that truly is safe for all people. Building on the excellent work that’s happening on the ground already that I can speak of in my diocese, in parishes here in the cathedral, that is being undermined by what is going on at the centre.